How the Foundation for Human Belonging Came to Be
Speaking with Jeff Schoep, the former leader of the largest U.S. neo-Nazi network, founder Shireen Qudosi shares building a new vision for the future.
We cannot win the kinetic war — the war that goes “tick tick boom” — until we can win the ideological war, the war of ideas. We can't win the ideological war unless we know what kind of ideology we're dealing with until we know what does it actually mean to be a part of this identity and to be a part of this group? What are the drivers? Until we can end understand that we can't win the war on any front
[Transcript. Scroll to the bottom for the full video]
Beyond Barriers: Welcome to another episode of the Beyond Barriers podcast with your hosts myself, Acacia Dietz and Jeff Schoep. Today we have a very special guest with us, a writer and a speaker on faith, identity, and belonging. In 2021, Shireen created the foundation for Human Belonging, Tell us a little bit about the Human Belonging Foundation. I've seen your post on Twitter and I've seen them on Instagram, and I can say with certainty, I absolutely love the idea of it, and I'm very excited to hear a little bit more.
Shireen Qudosi: The Foundation for Human Belonging is a combination of 20 years of experience what started off as really dealing with Islamist extremism, understanding the distort theology that that was radicalizing Muslims to looking at the broad spectrum of all ideologies that are extreme in nature. And then even how that's changed over 2020 with an increase in violence and indoctrination into different ideologies. We’re becoming so tribal that I wanted to take my two decades of experience and look at what was being done right, what could be done better and then really humanize that into a new framework.
And that framework is to be more inclusive of feminine leadership, which is softer messaging, softer, softer rhetoric but still punchy, still very strong and assertive. But not everything needs to be a hammer kind of approach. And so really looking at building a framework that is more consumable by a wider audience versus so that we are educating the widest possible people and informing them on what radicalization look like.
I don't think radicalization is just pinhole, like the way we demonize groups of people. But really, it's such a sinister thing in such a significant distortion into our right to live as human beings on this planet that we have to look at every crack that it's going into. And we can do that without scaring people or accusing people and making it simple for people to understand.
Beyond Barriers: Wow.
Thanks for sharing that. It's an outlook that I think more people need to have in this society and look at things in a different light. And you're definitely on the front lines of that. And that's why we're so happy to have you on the program. If you could, I know a little bit about your history, but I think our listeners would really like to hear right now in society. One of the things that's going on is with the trouble in Afghanistan and the switch to the Taliban there now and everything that's going on.
And I know you've been working on that and your background coming from Afghanistan, if you wouldn't mind, could you tell us a little bit about that?
Shireen Qudosi: Yeah. So my dad was an Afghan refugee and my mom is Pakistani, but they both escaped from Afghanistan when the coup happened in the 1970s, and they had to get smuggled out. So it was it was a very similar experience in a lot of ways to what's going on now. It was really coming full circle for me this time. There was a lot of trauma for a lot of first and second generation Afghans reliving what has been lived through in the last century. So I grew up with those stories. I mean, my entire life was impacted by the fact that we had to escape our homeland.
And so seeing how the migration journey that I had and that my parents had, which is very different. I was a kid. They were adults. And so we had two very, very different experiences and seeing what that was like, growing up hearing those stories. And then coming here, it was really surreal to kind of see the fall of Afghanistan again. And to see it not just from the perspective of these stories that my parents have lived, but also that is a failure of 20 years of not understanding what is essentially at the heart of it is very much theological problem. And we saw that with the way the Taliban was being interviewed, so to speak, I can't say that they were really being interviewed. They were just being questioned, giving all the wrong questions and accepting the softball answers.
And to see that now, here we are again, 20 years later, completely failing, wasting millions of dollars, because at the heart of it, we couldn't understand a theological problem. The Taliban, at least the ideology, is theological. Secondly, you're looking at a culture that is extremely tribal; Afghans are not religious people. They're tribal. They have a strong tribal identity, but they're not religious. The Taliban, their militant theology, is very alien for the Afghan people. And then just also seeing the geopolitics, because what we're looking at geopolitically is a very different cocktail from any other time period in recent memory with the US or Russia as far as an intervening hand in the region.
You've got China coming in with an open-door invitation. There is no combative strategy there. It's a very diplomatic, executive business strategy that they have with the Taliban to give them legitimacy. And that is really scary.
When we’re looking at the Taliban, we’re not just looking at the rise of Taliban. We’re also looking at Al Qaeda, the aspects that are still there.
We're looking at the Haqqani network. We're looking at ISIS-K now. And ISIS-K and the Haqqani network attract a lot of the rejects from the Taliban. And what makes you a Taliban reject? It’s because you thought the Taliban wasn't extreme enough. What makes them not extreme enough? Well, they went to negotiation tables with the US, and so a real militant, hardcore guerrilla fighter, an Islamist ideology, is not going to negotiate with the (U.S.) empire. These more extreme groups also thought Taliban tactics weren't violent enough. So when you see the bombings of the attacks on children, schools, pregnant women, mosques, that's the more extreme factions.
So the future of Afghanistan is not just the Taliban in power, that you've got these other aspects of extreme ideologies. And then you've also got China, which has its own problems with how they deal with its Muslim population, how it surveils its own communities, its own extremist state, essentially, and its influence in the region. Plus there’s China’s proxy allies…who are they? North Korea, Russia, Pakistan, and then Iran and Turkey as well. So you've got a really scary cocktail and I think that is the most daunting thing about what's going on.
You've got the refugee crisis, of course. But the withdrawals over, America's attention is going to go elsewhere, as it always does. It just normal. It's human behavior. But the future Afghanistan is I think we're seeing a really scary picture just starting to be painted.
Beyond Barriers: So how does that figure in with the Pashtun people and a lot of the Taliban are Pashtun and with your Pashtun Walli customs, is that is this something that the Taliban is going to be fighting these more extreme groups as far as the past Wali aspect? When I look back at what happened there 20 years ago ago, I said, these are people that can't be defeated. And I felt that it was because, well, historically, they haven't been and because of those tribal aspects and because of those customs, they have this, well, I'm sure you could explain it a lot better, but this honor bound, like if the US, the Russians or whoever is drone bombing them and an uncle passes away, isn't the rest of the family, according to the customs honor bound to avenge that.It’s a very complicated question.
Shireen Qudosi: And I don't think I could speak fully to the question. I’m not an expert on that aspect of it other than what I do know, growing up and being around that is there is an intense honor to their society, and that can go either way. But also, I think the other aspect of it is are the Taliban going to be seen as Afghans?
And I say that because if there are not the most tribal affiliations of honor, affiliations get amplified in a way that's to the advantage of people like you and I who are more free minded. If the Taliban is not seen as authentically Afghan, and we've seen that in the last 20 years.
For example, if you grew up in Afghanistan, and were born in Afghanistan, but you went away to another country even temporarily and then came back the civilian service force. Typically, the reports I got was that you weren't seen as a real Afghan. So it's a really big question as to be are the Taliban who at this point, where are they from? Have they been living out in the west? Are they from other factions, other groups? Are they going to be seen as authentically Afghan? And secondly, can they run that country first and foremost, then they have the other tribal factors, right.
You've seen in the media in Kabul as sort of the center force for defining what’s Afghanistan. From what I've heard from veterans, there's a lot of infrastructure and investment in Kabul, but the other regions outside of Kabul are very much a question. These are very, very tribal communities. And what I've heard thus far from folks is that the Taliban is just going through annihilating those villages. There's no media attention to that. And what sort of resources do people even have at this point. There is no recourse; there's nothing for them to fall back on.
I think it's a really big question, and I don't think anyone could have an answer for that right now. I think there's a lot that remains depending on what other factors come into play.
Beyond Barriers: And as far as things go for all these different interpreters and people that work with the west, what are your feelings on that? I personally believe that anybody that had worked with the west need to be gotten out of there because history is proven that those people in the past have been hunted down and not treated, been put to an end in a lot of cases. So I'm curious of your thoughts on that as well.
Shireen Qudosi: I haven’t heard a single person say that we should leave, that we should leave our interpreters behind. Everyone collectively agree that we should get them out. But the fact is, we haven’t. There are a lot of people that got left behind, and I still get emails from some of those people. It’s fascinating, because it's not just about the government doing this job, it's veterans. It's the tech personalities, influencers. it's everyday people. I’ve gotten emails from people who were contracted as part of the civilian sector in Afghanistan, and they had civilian Afghan colleagues, and they're trying to get them now.
And they worked with really, really big infrastructure contractors. And so it's everyone just trying to do their part to get these people out. But the fact is the withdrawal date is over with. These people did get left behind. Only people got left behind. And I think it speaks to the picture of where do we stand as a global community as part of the global community? Part sentiment that I grew up with in that part of the world is that Americans can't be trusted, that Americans don't have honor, loyalty, they don't have integrity.
And I think even prior to Afghanistan, we've seen that with the sort of internal strife that we have in our nation and that we can't even agree on basic things like gender. We can't agree on basic things like abortion rights. We just can't agree on basic stuff. And that underscores the idea that the secular world does not have stability. And that really plays into this extremist idea across the board, not just militant Muslim extremists, but across the board that these older institutions, these older ideas, these older theologies have more lasting power.
It’s like that phrase goes, America has the clock, but the Taliban has a time. These different ideologies have the time. All they have to do is just wait for us to dissolve ourselves.
And so the idea that we just left all these people behind, who our allies. I still have family that still stuck there; they couldn't get out. We tried everything. And we still are. But at this point, what are we supposed to do? The idea is that it really reinforces that notion that Americans don't have loyalty, they don't have integrity, and to not trust them because American leadership and its failure at this hour has reinforced that idea.
And I think moving forward, it's just not going to help us. It's not going to help us in the global stage, even if there is no other war. Let's just say wars end of tomorrow and that's it. There are still problems. Civic problems need to be dealt with. And what is our participating power if we just don't stand by a word? I think that's really the concern there is. It makes us more vulnerable at the end of the day.
Beyond Barriers: Absolutely. I agree on as far as, like, your work with human belonging, how would you suggest the United States, it does better. And it's a loaded question. But what can we do as a society, as a civil society, to do better and not just with the Afghanistan situation, but in human understanding and relationships in general.
Shireen Qudosi: I would say three things.
First and foremost, we really have to have an immersive experience. We talk about so many issues, but we talk about them at the superficial level, unless someone experiences just sitting across — like you had with Deeyah Khan — until you had that experience of talking to her face to face and what feelings surfaced in you.. until you have an immersive experience, nothing will change. People will not change, but they can change if they have an immersive experience. So what does that look like? I mean, there's so many great programs out there that are willing to offer an answer to that the question. But are they going to get funded?
The second thing is that it's really about local solutions, bringing local solutions into power. If we enact our ability of local change agents, we can actually make it different.
So what does that look like in the case of Afghanistan…Well, okay. Those refugees are coming, what can you do to help them? They need X, Y and Z materialistic goods to start their life over. But they also need to integrate into what it means to be American. They're bringing their culture, their trauma, their tragedy, their perceptions of what is normal in with them across the threshold. It's not just their baggage. It's everything. It's their entire history. And so how can we integrate them through programs or hrough participation that really helps them acclimate to a new lifestyle?
The third thing is the power of language. So how are we talking about these issues? And it goes back to the idea that we cannot win the kinetic war — the war that goes “tick tick boom” — until we can win the ideological war, the war of ideas. We can't win the ideological war unless we know what kind of ideology we're dealing with until we know what does it actually mean to be a part of this identity and to be a part of this group? What are the drivers? Until we can end understand that we can't win the war on any front.
How are we talking about these things? How are we orienting our understanding? And a really quick example I'll give you in how these two things tie in together as far as language goes is this.
The same day of the Afghanistan withdrawal deadline, we had this issue in Texas with the Texas abortion law. And what you saw was people referring to Texas lawmakers as American Taliban, Texas Sharia. And it's such a misnomer because first and foremost, there is a world of difference between the Taliban and the lawmakers in the US, there is a world of difference between Sharia law and this specific Texas law. And the fact is that not only did we monumentally mess up this withdrawal, and essentially the last 20 years, but now we can't even get the terminology right about this problem here.
Like, we can't even understand that there's a difference between this and that. And if we can't understand that, if we're going to be lazy and just dive into the cliche rhetoric that makes us feel like we got one on somebody else… then we're never, ever going to be able to solve the problem as a human being. Language is so integral to every and really understanding what an ideology is about and what drives it like a good example.
Beyond Barriers: I think, too, is how we label. A lot of people in society like throwing around the label extremist. Yeah, that can apply to most people depending on who you ask. You vote Republican or vote Democrat, you’re an extremist now. I mean, that's how crazy it's gotten. So I agree with you 100%. The language is important and labeling people and just throwing it all into this box. I mean, that's where extremists are made. And I speak from experience on that one, unfortunately. But yeah, it's when you start doing that labeling.
Shireen Qudosi: I agree with you.We need to understand one another and have this dialogue. Have conversations and humanize the person across from us instead of labeling them. And so I'm really glad that that you see that and pointed that out because it's really important.
Beyond Barriers: You mentioned the power of language. And I see this in your posts a lot too, which I am a lover of quotes and just of everything language. It is very, very powerful. And I know as a society a lot of times I've seen it over the years of you hit the nail on the head. It's just a matter of being lazy. Well, it kind of this is a strong word and something that we don't like.
So we're going to attach it to this, even though the actual meaning of it has nothing to do with it. I mean, it's like labeling all conservative Nazis and all Democrats, communists. And I definitely agree with you. And many times we want to paint everything with a broad brush and you can't. There are several nuances. But I know back when 9/11 happened, I was in high school and it was I think it was a big thing for America because we thought we were untouchable, and it proved to us that we were not untouchable.
But I also know that before that things with wars, unless you were a part of the military or had family such as yourself over in the other parts of the world, you (at least me) growing up had this idea that, well, this happens there. So what concern is it of hours? And even now I'm realizing that people are talking, it hits a little bit closer to home since I work in the realm of extremism now. But seeing all of this happen over there and realizing and people are true to say it, too, that why should we care what happens over there?
First and foremost, these are human beings. These are lives. These are people. These aren't just some catastrophic event happening across the world. And Secondly, it does matter what happens over there, because if we allow extremist ideology to take hold somewhere, it's only a matter of time before it's going to reach back across the world again. And so it does affect everybody. So I, for one, want to commend you for being willing to step out of the norm and go against the quote, unquote norm to try and help reveal a lot of these truths, because it takes a very strong person to do that.
And I'm sure you probably get a lot of backlash for being as open and honest as you are.
Guess I should say I'm assuming that you do because you don't. You're not only vocal on this front, but in everything having to do with humanity and showing the humanity of that other and trying to curve that, especially with this, everything going on in Afghanistan. Have you received a lot of backlash for your support of trying to get people out of there?
Shireen Qudosi: Not in Afghanistan, but you bring up a really good point. What that backlash looks like changes depending on the season of your life. So when I first started out that backlash was for my family, and I mean, I got called the devil by my mom. I got kicked out of the house, like I was homeless for a good half a year. I mean, it was pretty bad. It economically just devastated me. Right? So that's what the backlash look like. The early years, like, 15 years ago.
That changes as the world events become really, really unavoidable, people, at least in my family, started shifting. They started noticing things like, okay, this is why she speaks on this. So now after after January 6, 2021, you can't ignore that. This is everywhere; it is so pervasive. So there's more normalization of what you're talking about. What the backlash looks like as you get older and more seasoned is the lack of resources and a platform.
And this is where the polarization comes in. I think you guys and a lot of your listeners knows will probably understand this. Where unless you kind of drink the Kool Aid and say what needs to be said the way it needs to be said unless you're really like, you know, an extreme personality on Twitter and have a certain kind of persona, you just will not make it at this point. Like, my platform has been devastated ever since I left [labels], especially the conservative circle and the talking points.
I still agree with a lot of the the direction that they're going in terms of how they want to talk about stuff or what their views are. But I think how they go about it is just completely wrong. I think it just demonizes and alienates people. But because I don't talk about these things with cruelty, my language has really changed. And there's people who have noticed that there's a lot of folks that really notice that it's opened up a new sort of audience.
So I going to get speaker gigs? No. Because unless you're speaking in the language that people are familiar with, which is cruelty, it can be extremely alienating, which makes your work and my work that much tougher, but that much also more important right now.
Beyond Barriers: Absolutely. I would definitely agree with you. And you're right. I mean, here at Beyond Barriers, we're learning that whole the government sets out such and such amount for funding. But a lot of times unless you drink the kool-aid and you talk the good talk and are willing to compromise on values, that probably should not be. Then a lot of times you're kind of left in the dust to do it all on your own. And I don't know about you. And I know about Jeff [Schoep of Beyond Barriers], but I'll tell you what, I think they have another thing coming if they realized that all of us that actually do believe in this, that it's going to stop us, because if anything, I think just from seeing all the things that you're doing, it's major resolved that much stronger because, you know, it's that much needed.
Shireen Qudosi: I mean, there is no funding right now, like, everything I'm doing is out of pocket, out of my time. There is just nothing. And part of the reason people are, why don't you just go down or why don't you just do the women's [rights] thing [which is seen as easy money and platforming] because everyone likes that. Great. I can tap into that. But that's not the core message. My core message is how distortion is a wrecking ball into our lives. And what does that distortion mask look like depending on the scene that we're in?
And that's the most important conversation in human civilization. We are at the pinnacle of what human civilization is. It can either go up or it can completely crash. And we're at sort of like that point where it's rubber meets the road. Like, what are we going to do? And I think at this point, if the government thinks that the roadmap they're on is sustainable… I think no one is under any illusions that the system's not working.
And it's been really eye opening because, yeah, it is an over their country. Twenty years went by. No one really paid attention to it now, because again, it's been something that we lost that so visibly people are realizing, okay, this didn't work. And it's been going on for 20 years. Like, what else is not working? It's really made a lot of people more vocal. So I think we're going to start seeing a change. I don't think it's going to happen tomorrow. I think it's gonna happen in the next two or three years.
But the way things are going is just at this point, not sustainable on the work that you and I are doing.
Beyond Barriers: I think it was really interesting how you mention how it's cruelty. I've never heard of it. I've never thought of it that way, even. But you're right on. And that's why we think your work is so inspiring. And what you're doing is so inspiring because these things need to be said. And that's exactly what it is. There's so much cruelty in society, even just between the political parties, it's hateful. It is literally coming from an extremist background. It's like the stuff that we use to spew in those days that, you know, being on an extremist organization, that's what we're hearing.
And we're hearing it out of mainstream politicians, out of government officials, like people that should that should know better. That should not be saying these kind of things. So I agree with you. I mean, right now, it is very difficult in, as you know, we're doing everything out of pocket as well, and it's hard. It's hard to sustain. It's hard to keep going. But we do it because we believe in it. And I know that's the same thing that pushes you on as well. And it's noble and it's honorable, and it's inspiring.
But the cruelty, you're right. And that's what we need to break through that and be able to have these conversations, have this dialogue, have some empathy, compassion.
Shireen Qudosi: I don't think people understand that. I don't think they see it. I'll give you an example, right.
You've got at the squad in Congress. Ilhan [Omar] and Rashida [Talib], AOC, and then Ayanna Presley. Once you start training and what extremism looks like, you cannot unsee it in every other aspect of life. And so when I see the squad, I'm thinking that's a gang. They just made a gang in Congress.
And so now you're going to go tell little kids don't join gangs. But that's a higher elected office gang at this point. That's how they painted themselves — not an alliance, not a cooperation, not a council, not a fellowship, but a squad, which by default means they're excluding other people. And there's examples of that on the other side, you've got Ted Cruz leaving Texas to go on holiday. Well, the rest thestate freezes. But the next second, he's tapping on the rhetoric of blue collar steel workers to talk about American jobs.
These people don't care about steel workers and blue collar people, but it's the rhetoric that gets tapped into to polarize and divide. And it's like, oh, I'm going to support this blue collar state here, but by doing that, he pivoted against something else. So it wasn't something that any of them do intentionally. I think most of them are not intentionally aware of how they're polarizing their societies. But it's when you are stepping into a language that is, by default, really, really combative and alienating to another group of people.
That is the cause and effect that happens there. I think that's where our work really comes in. It's such an important work because you've got really smart, bright people. Like, I'm not saying none of these people aren’t bright. There are exceptionally bright, talented, gifted people. They just don't have the component of awareness here because their life path, their experiences didn't give them that. So we're here to give people that like, hey, this is what you're doing. This is how you're just causing a bigger problem down the road.
And so that's the tough part to have because people don't want to be told they're wrong. People don't want to be told that there's a better way to do this and everything. Then you make the suggestion. It becomes very, very combative. And that's where the Foundation of Human Belonging comes in. And that's what I love about beyond Barriers, because you're literally looking to see, okay, let's get rid of the divisive of language. Let's get rid of the walls between us and the other person. And let's really look at a common playing field here and again.
I think it's a matter of time where the impact that we have is going to start being seeing. I think it's not something that can happen tomorrow, but that's a long haul game.
Beyond Barriers: And you hit the nail on the head with that one. You know, it's the long haul. It's the big picture. Like, if we were just worried about the little picture, we'd be doing what everybody else does. And it's about the rhetoric. But it's not about that. It's about the people. And it's interesting that you pointed on the fact of, like, we're talking about language and the importance of language. And I've noticed it even within myself that until I started working with Beyond Barriers and started doing a lot of introspection and everything, I even did not realize the magnitude that language has and the reach that it has and the way that it shapes how we view things.
We talk a lot about dialogue and about humanizing the other. And until I was involved in extremism, and until I started working in counter extremism or preventing extremism and trying to educate people on the realities of it not just that it's this big Boogie man, but like, you said earlier, educating them on the proper way to deal with it, educating them on the actual ideology. And instead of just looking at it like it's the Boogie man, and we just need to ignore it or extinguish it.
These are really people that have given the proper tools do have the chance to step away from it. So I think that's really interesting. Even with our politicians, you're mentioning how it's not always that they're necessarily doing it on purpose. Sometimes it's more not realizing the effect of the language used and what that effect and that outcome will actually be. So I think you're right. We definitely need a lot more education on the use of our words and what we use to communicate because it makes a really big difference.
And then also, I had a quick question also. And I don't know if I've ever asked you this before in person or not. But how did you get involved with wanting to work in the realm of extremism women, radicalization and polarity?
Shireen Qudosi: 9/11. 9/11 happened. I was on tracked go to law school and you do all the things you got to do to get to that…and it's not fun and it's not cheap, but you do it.
And then 911 happened and you're like, wait, what just happened? And you start asking questions about your religion that you've been branded with from birth and you realize you don't really know it. It came down to one definitive conversation that I had with a really trusted sacred friend. He asked a question about Mohammed, and I couldn't answer it.
And I wasn't comfortable with the fact that I couldn't answer it. So I started asking other people that are Muslim, and they couldn't answer it either. And I'm like, okay, so why can't we answer that? And I started asking more questions and we couldn't answer basic questions and we don't have the knowledge for that conversation. And so I started just studying it. I quit school a year later, and I just started studying it on my own. It was early 2000. We didn't have social media and communities and all the data that we have now.
And so you're just kind of figuring it out. And so I traveled to Japan. I studied with Muslim communities in Japan. I studied with Critical Loyalty on Islamic history and theology. Asked just so many questions, volunteered with the local Shura Council, and the Islamic Institute locally here to see what are the different paradigms that we're dealing with. And I just read the Quran. And I can't say it's just one timeline. I would say that my entire life, like, even up until last night, there's always something happening in it that's refining my understanding of this problem and constantly shaping it.
And then in 2017, I looked at the broader spectrum of extremism across the board through the Clarion Project — was my role with the prevent violent extremism training program. And I realized that there’s a blueprint for human behavior that can overlap with extremism. Essentially, why do certain people go down this route? And I saw that there's a very sort of consistent pattern for what radicalize people, just a couple of things I learned was just what are the seven or eight characteristics of an extremist.
And you realize it's not like you have to go attend weekly dungeon meetings to be an extremist. No, these are very simple things, like frustration, alienation, feeling of grand importance, feeling that you're not heard. I'm like, oh, I check off seven out of eleven of these boxes or whatever it was. Why didn't I become an extremist? And the reason being is that there's certain factors that have to happen in your life at the right time mixed with who you are at that point in time that pushes you down that path.
So there's not that much difference between us and anybody else, since it's a very, very real thing. And then one of the workshops I’m working on for the Foundation for Human Belonging is the immersive experience of what is the culture of extremism..what is the music? What is the poetry? What is the art? So that as much as possible without going into that dungeon meeting in the back room, like, you are really going into the world of what it feels like.
And a lot of times when you hear the music or you hear the poetry, you feel an emotion, and it's a human emotion, like it's normal human emotion. And you can resonate with that other person who can feel the same way. But the minute I tell you, oh, but this was a Hitler's favorite song. You're like, oh, wait, I don't like that song, but it's like, wait, let's get rid of the labels. Let's look at what was it that you identified with in this song? Because if you identified with it, you now understand the 10 million people who identified with it enough to go and do something.
And that's not to justify what they did but to understand the thought process that led them there, because we're nowhere near at the sort of apex of what it means to be a human being. Like, we're still struggling with our own vulnerabilities. And so if we can understand that vulnerability, not only are we understanding that problem, so that we're deescalating the problem, we're also understanding ourselves. Like, what is it about me that found something attractive? What is it about me that, like, this thing or had this feeling and so that you can really constantly keep knocking out those barriers within and without.
Beyond Barriers: Really well stated, because that's it in a nutshell. I couldn't say it any better. I don't even have anything to add to that. Share. That was just good. That was really good. Yeah. Is there anything else that you're currently working on that you want to see about?
Shireen Qudosi: Yeah. So I'm giving a talk on the 20th anniversary of the war on terror and going into Afghanistan 911, essentially. So there is a talk on that coming up. The Zoom link is in my bio across Instagram, and I think across Twitter as well. And so working on the foundation and working on giving more trainings as well. And my boo — that’s been 20 years in the making. So the book started off as really being about understanding what this problem is with Islam and then realizing the problem is beyond Islam.
The problem is our human understanding of Islam. And then looking at Islam as essentially an organic consciousness. So something that's constantly shifting and changing, not something that was fixed in the timeline and that's it. And I think that's very, very symbolic for every ideology, like every sort of identity that we wrap ourselves around. It's not fixed. I mean, the idea of America, another example, we say America is the idea but America is still evolving, as you can tell, we're still fighting about what it means to be American at this point.
More so I think, than at any other point in my living memory. So all of these ideas are still transformative. They're still mutating. And I think we still have a role to play in writing the next chapter of what it means. And so the book is really about the Foundation of Human Belonging and the song of the human heart. And it's very personal. I didn’t want it to be another history lesson or talking down to people. I wanted it just to be a conversation and that's finally come together. I’m looking forward to finding a publisher for it and moving forward.
And I think those two things. Plus that the fallout from 2020 in homeschool that keeps me busy.
Beyond Barriers: I’m sure speaking of 2020 and home schooling or just schooling in general for everybody who's been crazy. Now I know that you have a son with special needs who is autistic who you've mentioned on Twitter before. How is it trying to run a 501c3, write a book and not only have children, but having to help care for a child with special needs, that means way more than your average child. How has that been? How is that?
Shireen Qudosi: Like it is the hardest thing I've ever done in my entire life. Like, I mean, every day I think I didn't sign up for this. I didn't sign up, you know, for taking on one of the biggest problems in the world right now. I didn't sign up for having to navigate the maze and the labyrinth that is essentially special needs. I didn't sign up for becoming a home school parent. I didn't sign up for any of this. But here we are. And I think it's just sort of where we are as people, essentially because we're all dealing with something that we didn't sign up for.
But here we are. It's just a testament to the resiliency that we have. And that doesn't mean that every day is great. I have learned so much in the last couple of years, like, just how to say no, how to set boundaries. I mean, if you can't set boundaries, good luck. how to readjust my expectations of what it meant to school or what not. And I think where things come into alignment because I really, really believe I really believe that Reagan, my son, is a map for myself and also for where things are.
So when I look at what happened with him, right. And I've had issues with his school district for a long time, a lot of times when they're special needs, they just don't get the same kind of attention and care that neurotypical kids do. I saw he needed something different. Home school ended up working for him when we were doing Zoom from home and doing home school in the summer. I'm like, okay, that's actually not that hard. I can do it. You only need 90 minutes of instructions a day, like, six to 90 minutes of actual instruction.
The rest is just filler. So the challenge is when I'm home and the 90 minutes are up, I have to kind of occupy him. And that's the challenge. So you see that set up back there? It's been for both of us. Like, I'm working, and he's literally across from that. And that is poignant in two ways. One, I'll be talking about the issues that you and I talk about, which are serious issues with a lot of gravity. The next second, I'm literally teaching this kid the difference between one and one plus one… and eleven plus one.
Like, just simple, simple basics. And it really keeps you humble and reminds you, like, you're not that important. You're not all that you think you are. Like, this is just you still at the foundational level with another little person.
And the second thing is, you know, when we look at extremism, we look at what I call radicalization is the idea that there's only one way to be in belong in the world, and that's it and extremism is enacting that radicalization, radicalized belief through force. So forcing someone to act a certain way, believe a certain way.
And I would say that it's not just physical violence is also psychological violence, emotional violence, like whatever that violence looks like on different forms. Now, when I look at the school district and I look at the setup that you have for children, specifically, autistic children, these children are so diverse. They're so different. Like, he's one of the most interesting people I know on the the planet that it is such a cruelty again to put them in a system where he's with a bunch of other kids who are nothing like each other.
They have no commonality. They don't even like each other. It's not like they're learning off of peers because they don't see each other as peers. And now you're forcing him through a funnel every single day to modify his behavior so that it's normalized with what is expected in the school system. He is extremely artistic. He learns like an accordion. Like, you have to take a subject to pull it out like that so he can learn. [And schools don’t teach like that.]
So am I not being an extremist by forcing him into a school system that doesn't work for him that forces him to be a certain way, that doesn't align with who he is?
Because why? Because it's easier for me? So I can have five 3 hours on a day? Like, is that not extreme? So the philosophy that I went with was unschooling, which really looks at the concept of free will in education. The principle is that you're not forcing kid; you’re working with in their interest. So if I know he likes arts and art his gateway, then everything, every subject revolves around art. If I know he takes 15 minutes to learn something, then I'm gonna give him 15 minutes to learn something or to start getting into that mindset to learn that th
ing versus, oh, 15 minutes are up let’s move onto the next subject [like they do in mainstream school].
Well, so it's been really eye opening because look at where we are in terms of, like how more and more people becoming radicalized and polarized and extreme. It used to be this idea that what extreme is just a fringe group. And now we're seeing it's actually very, very common. Okay, how do we take that and reprogram or un-program simply at the youngest level. And I think that's where I got the idea for having workshops for younger kids, like, really simple things because we've been talking with you.
High school has an extremism problem. They all know that. Okay, at high school, it's maybe too late. Like these kids are already in their pattern. The programs that we're having are not working because all the programs are doing, they're all well intended, but they're just reinforcing the extremist message. There's no alternative framework. So one of the things is go into schools at a younger age and talk about these subjects without even mentioning extremism, radicalization, or polarity, because that's so much for even an adult, let alone a small child. But start teaching them things.
Like, what does it mean to listen? What does it mean to see? What are these simple, simple concepts so that there's a level of confidence. It’s about building a level of awareness so that when they are older and they're encountering the things that typically pull people into the other side. There is a resiliency that's built in. And that's a natural resiliency.
Beyond Barries: Absolutely. And I'm so glad he mentioned about going in at the younger ages because you don't even have to talk about extremism or radicalization or extremist groups or terrorism or anything like that, because what we're doing at the younger ages is we're teaching them simple dialogue, simple. Hey, you're different than me, and that's okay. And what can we do to understand each other like that all part of it. So I'm so glad you mentioned that. And it's so true. Yeah. Like it. It amazes me how us, as adults tend to complicate everything.
And when we're thinking about it and we're thinking about, okay, there's all these people out here countering this. They're countering these ideologies and stuff like that. But how do we prevent it? And it starts with our youth. It starts with our youth.
We really appreciate you coming on the program, and it was very informative. And if there's anything that you had that you wanted to mention in closing.
Shireen Qudosi: I just wanted to thank you guys, the work that you're doing. I'm going to be honest with a lot of people doing a lot of work. There's two things like to touch on what a case. You just said there's a lot of people focusing on what's wrong, and we can talk about that all day, but that's not going to help the solution at all. It's not a solution to re amplify what went wrong. It's just re amplification of the problem.
So to see you guys actually talk about solutions is great. I'm just noticing how much you guys are doing authentically. This entire industry is a big ego trip for a lot of people. It’s humanitarian chic to take on an issue. And you guys are not that. I really, really appreciate it.
Beyond Barriers: Thank you for doing what you do and for starting the Foundation for Human Belonging. I am so excited to see that grow and flourish. Very excited. And I will definitely in our bio or in our description of this podcast will be the link for your website and also for the Human belonging and also for that Zoom meeting for the 9/11. So looking forward to that very much. So thank you again.
Shireen Qudosi: Thank you so much.